Meatloaf With Cornflakes
Joelle is pretty clearly beautiful although she hasn't removed her veil. But if, as she claims, removing her veil "drive[s] anybody with a nervous system out of their fucking mind," how did she and Orin date? Was she wearing a veil as a cheerleader or no (I forget if it says; it seemed like it was never mentioned and thus I'd've assumed...)?
I want to learn more about Joelle's Own Personal Daddy. He was the only person to really make Joelle feel safe (what is it about him that does this?). Also, why doesn't she seem to be in contact with him (she mentions that he is living)? She does say "That's how he puts it" (referring to his "still sucking air") so it's not like they're estranged but it doesn't seem like she spends time on the phone with him. Also... is the relationship... incestual at all?
Interesting about the Moms and J'NR'W. I assume the whole football deal suggests that Avril misses Orin a lot more than she is letting on?
More on the Incs. Does anyone remember if there are significant differences/discrepancies between Hal's telling of the mold story and Orin's?
Interestingly enough, we're given a few hints as to why Orin doesn't talk to his parents but not really much definitively. Like, when "Helen" Steeply asks Orin about his parents he talks a lot about how they're insane but not really if there's one specific thing that's bugging him.
The swiss hand model, on the other hand, gives us a little more definitive insight. Orin very much needs to be in control which is probably why he only sees his Subjects once and then leaves them. Also, he absolutely LOVES taking so much control over the Subjects that they transfer their need for their children to him (relating to his mother? Oedipally?). This part also says that Orin was irreparably broken by Joelle. I guess I want to know even more now what happened. Was Joelle hurt too and does this have anything to do with her veil?
I like the addition of Lenz, by the way. It makes the book a lot more interesting to read because Lenz is a, well, very interesting character. I also feel that Lenz brings in a lot of emotion to the book that before it had sort of been lacking in (for me).
I want to learn more about Joelle's Own Personal Daddy. He was the only person to really make Joelle feel safe (what is it about him that does this?). Also, why doesn't she seem to be in contact with him (she mentions that he is living)? She does say "That's how he puts it" (referring to his "still sucking air") so it's not like they're estranged but it doesn't seem like she spends time on the phone with him. Also... is the relationship... incestual at all?
Interesting about the Moms and J'NR'W. I assume the whole football deal suggests that Avril misses Orin a lot more than she is letting on?
More on the Incs. Does anyone remember if there are significant differences/discrepancies between Hal's telling of the mold story and Orin's?
Interestingly enough, we're given a few hints as to why Orin doesn't talk to his parents but not really much definitively. Like, when "Helen" Steeply asks Orin about his parents he talks a lot about how they're insane but not really if there's one specific thing that's bugging him.
The swiss hand model, on the other hand, gives us a little more definitive insight. Orin very much needs to be in control which is probably why he only sees his Subjects once and then leaves them. Also, he absolutely LOVES taking so much control over the Subjects that they transfer their need for their children to him (relating to his mother? Oedipally?). This part also says that Orin was irreparably broken by Joelle. I guess I want to know even more now what happened. Was Joelle hurt too and does this have anything to do with her veil?
I like the addition of Lenz, by the way. It makes the book a lot more interesting to read because Lenz is a, well, very interesting character. I also feel that Lenz brings in a lot of emotion to the book that before it had sort of been lacking in (for me).
posted by Cory at 8:19 PM
3 Comments:
You stole my question...so Joelle even claims that it is her beauty that makes her deformed and therefore she wears the veil and is a part of the Union. (Which also brings in the question of Marathe, since this seems to verify Orin's perception of the world, and makes me think that Steeply truly does seem female)
I would assume during the period she was dating Orin that she did not have the veil, since Orin comments that others were afraid to talk to her. My next question coming from this is did something from their relationship, or resulting after make Joelle more beautiful.
As we know in the entertainment she removes her viel, which means by the making she has already become deformed, but she also is said to remove this veil for himself. I think this helps solidfy the theory that she is a large part of the entertaintment's control over others.
As just a side comment, I really liked this section talking about how they acknowledged their shame of being ashamed and how both Joelle and Gately are correct in their statements.
I don't remember if there is a diference in stories, so I shall try to find out tonight.
I actually do not find Lenz to be an emotional passage (even the passage where Green sees him kill the dog), but I thought he was a very interesting character.
Just to say more on Lenz, Cory I find Lenz to be one of the emotional parts of the book. Lenz commits somewhat horrific actions, yet DFW barely changes his writing style for Lenz's section. Here the narrator for LEnz is rather professional (see below for my explination)
I would like to say for this that two main narrators seem to be taking over (well sort of three).
There is the one who is written as though they were someone of the time, often inserting comments into the writing. I often believe this narrator be to Hal, or a tennis acedemy memeber writing after the events in the novel.
Then there is the narrator who is short and professional, who is mainly used in the sections consisting largely or entirely of qoutes.
Finally there seems to be a narrator that is all knowing and speaks in a professional manner compared to the first narrator. I merely imagine this narrator as DFW himself writing.
Anyways that may seem like a really random post, but I feel as though it is important since much of the information we recieve in this novel is somewhat unrealible, and I often find myself second guessing the information formthe first narrator, but not the second two.
Oh Cory I also forgot to mention earlier about Joelle and her personal Daddy, I did get the impression of an incestual, but I believe they are astranged. It seems as though Joelle has not talked toher Dad in years since it takes her quite soem time to respond to whether or not he is alive...
PS. not knowing what is about to happen to hal is driving me crazy.
1) Addenum: It seems likely that Avril messed up JVD/Orin since a) She clearly needs to be the center of male attention b) She's basically putting herself in Joelle's position w/Orin when they first met. So she was jealous &, well, Avril is good at having her way. Plus, she expects Hal to kowtow so she was probably annoyed when Orin shifted his attentions.
Maybe this is (related to) why JOI killed himself...
2) I agree when you say they haven't talked for years... mostly. Like, I'm pretty sure they haven't talked deeply in many years. She made the "still sucking air" comment, though, as if she had talked to him somewhat recently (probably not a deep conversation, though).
Why would they be estranged? She hasn't, IMO, evinced any hatred or even annoyance. Nothing but pure love.
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